Jaraal wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Don’t think when ZOS started and implemented the idea of AWA they had any idea how much it would affect the game. Now they are lost because there is no easy fix for the mess it has created which is why they are not really saying anything about it. It will take them months and months of work to address everything that is affected by achievements and not story completed. Not to mention how it will affect how they program and change the game going forward.

Without realizing it they just created mountains of extra work for themselves. Which in turn will be a lost for us because there are only so many developer hours to work on the game. Considering Rich said it would take someone months to change Dragonstar arena and he thought that time would be better spent working on new stuff rather then going back and changing older content. Either ZOS will not fix the problems AWA created or will fix it but in turn be less new content we see because of the hours stolen of developer time to address the problems AWA created.

In short, we have lost either way by a broken game or less new content.

Stay safe and enjoy Springtime

The thing about not fixing bugs (in this case, broken NPC interactions) is that it creates a legacy that will remain in place until the day they pull the plug on the game. Many people will notice the incongruencies.... not only the veteran players, but the new players who come in in the future. And the quality of the details, or lack thereof, reflects on the studio as a whole. Regarding them going back and fixing dialogues when they have time, well, there are still many broken texts still in place from previous modifications made to the game, as well as lore inconsistencies that have no explanation. So the track record doesn't favor the loose ends being tied up any time soon.... if at all. Besides, they haven't even commented on whether the affected dialogues are a problem or not... so we have to assume that they are working as intended, until notified otherwise.

I will NEVER accept that they are working as intended. They are clearly not, and originally were coded to work with alts individually. They simply didn't tie up all the loose ends from AwA and need to prioritize the quality and details of their game when making sweeping changes like this, and that includes post-release bug fixing.

Jaraal wrote: »

You mean, like pressing E to speak with Melina Cassel, and her remaining silent?

This is the same experience I had with her on my alt. Glad to see someone else confirm it. Well, not glad, but you know.

Guess it may be time to headcanon that her interactions with your first character were so profoundly altering that she decided to join the Dark Brotherhood and apprentice under Remains-Silent.

Kirawolfe wrote: »

I've progressed in the Markarth storyline with my second character. My first character has completed the entire zone, and the Ravenwatch title epilogue at the end. But she also interacted with Melina Cassel - the vampire lady who has a thing for Fennorian. My first character met her multiple times and helped her work out what she needed to do.

Just like (I believe) the Adoring Fan, Melina is no longer working for any new toon, once you've gone through her options on another toon, thanks to shared achievements.

This is Melina, just in case folks were wondering who I'm talking about. You get the 'E' to talk, but nothing happens when you press it.

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

They actually didn't do anything. Melina was already behaving like that - not having any lines for a character who completed the 5 interactions - before AWA. The only difference is that now all of your "extra" characters are really just alter-egos of the one who did it first.

I remember running across her plenty of times after my main had completed her "quest", back when they released the structural plans and motifs for Markarth*. It was very odd to still find her, be able to hit the interaction button, but have no lines.

Back then, I found it very odd and thought they were becoming careless. She might be the only NPC in game who has nothing else to say to you after you completed all the steps. Not even a thank you (I was actually hoping for some kind of info on how her relationship with Fennorian had evolved).

I wonder if when they coded Markarth they forgot to add a few lines of code that would prevent characters who had done all the steps from seeing her again.



*Just to be clear, this was all done with my main. I did NOT got my other characters to Markarth.

I didn't even know they had achievement only quests and NPCs that were not tracked in the quest database until the bugs came out on PTS with AwA. It just makes me sad ZOS didn't think these particular quests were important enough to keep in character achievements, or move to a simple yes/no check in the quest database. I mean, museum quests were important enough to move character side, why not these achievement only NPCs also?

As for Melina ending up with Fennorian, she's too flightly. Have you read all her messages when she sends you enchanting materials and how she was into this one guy, and then kissed another one, and had this sort of love triangle going on? Fennorian is too nice for that sort of thing and I kinda felt bad ZOS put that in there for him.

For me it's losing Count Verandis' epilogue that hurts the most. It's the perfect wrap up to the Dark Heart of Skyrim story arc, and not having that ever again just sucks.

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

They actually didn't do anything. Melina was already behaving like that - not having any lines for a character who completed the 5 interactions - before AWA. The only difference is that now all of your "extra" characters are really just alter-egos of the one who did it first.

I remember running across her plenty of times after my main had completed her "quest", back when they released the structural plans and motifs for Markarth*. It was very odd to still find her, be able to hit the interaction button, but have no lines.

Back then, I found it very odd and thought they were becoming careless. She might be the only NPC in game who has nothing else to say to you after you completed all the steps. Not even a thank you (I was actually hoping for some kind of info on how her relationship with Fennorian had evolved).

I wonder if when they coded Markarth they forgot to add a few lines of code that would prevent characters who had done all the steps from seeing her again.



*Just to be clear, this was all done with my main. I did NOT got my other characters to Markarth.

My apologies. When I completed her, she always disappeared for me. So I had assumed that her sticking around (but uninteractable) was a "new" thing. Then again, it's hard to prove something doesn't appear than it is to prove that something does appear; it's quite possible that she's always stuck around in this state and I just never had the luck to find her again after all 5 times.

Either way, I am still very sad she is not fixed. I understand that it is not very high on the list of important things to fix, but I would feel less awful if they at least mentioned whether it's something they are going to try and fix at a later time....

Kesstryl wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

They actually didn't do anything. Melina was already behaving like that - not having any lines for a character who completed the 5 interactions - before AWA. The only difference is that now all of your "extra" characters are really just alter-egos of the one who did it first.

I remember running across her plenty of times after my main had completed her "quest", back when they released the structural plans and motifs for Markarth*. It was very odd to still find her, be able to hit the interaction button, but have no lines.

Back then, I found it very odd and thought they were becoming careless. She might be the only NPC in game who has nothing else to say to you after you completed all the steps. Not even a thank you (I was actually hoping for some kind of info on how her relationship with Fennorian had evolved).

I wonder if when they coded Markarth they forgot to add a few lines of code that would prevent characters who had done all the steps from seeing her again.



*Just to be clear, this was all done with my main. I did NOT got my other characters to Markarth.

I didn't even know they had achievement only quests and NPCs that were not tracked in the quest database until the bugs came out on PTS with AwA. It just makes me sad ZOS didn't think these particular quests were important enough to keep in character achievements, or move to a simple yes/no check in the quest database. I mean, museum quests were important enough to move character side, why not these achievement only NPCs also?

As for Melina ending up with Fennorian, she's too flightly. Have you read all her messages when she sends you enchanting materials and how she was into this one guy, and then kissed another one, and had this sort of love triangle going on? Fennorian is too nice for that sort of thing and I kinda felt bad ZOS put that in there for him.

For me it's losing Count Verandis' epilogue that hurts the most. It's the perfect wrap up to the Dark Heart of Skyrim story arc, and not having that ever again just sucks.

I agree, Melina would not be a good fit for Fenn. She's a hopeless romantic, and I wouldn't doubt she'd eventually move on to someone new the next time we meet her. (And technically only one of the two dudes from her letters seemed to reciprocate her feelings. The other is a little bit hazier). Additionally, I actually think there's some evidence to suggest that Fenn doesn't feel the same way about her.

Technically, Melina does appear in the Greymoor storyline, but you can only see her if you abandon the main questline (from "Vampire Scholar" onwards; she won't appear prior to this quest). She is one of the NPCs tasked with re-directing you back to the main questline if you've dropped the quest from your quest log. One of the comments she makes off-handedly suggests that Fennorian is purposefully giving her the task of giving you these messages in order to keep her out of his way. And her next comment about how "splendidly we get along" seems more like she's trying to convince herself than any statement of truth.


~~~

To return to the topic of storylines and AWA, I wanted to apologize that the Clockwork city testing has not gone as fast as I'd have liked. I got very very ill this week, and I'm still struggling to catch up on my work. But I wanted to share what results I have so far, at the very least.

• I made sure that my main's achievements on Clockwork, Vvardenfell, Main Storyline, and Thieves' guild were all registered
• Made a new toon, skipped tutorial, went through Clockwork prologue quest
• This quest happens to have special dialogue, dependent on whether you did Vvardenfell or Clockwork before doing the quest. None of this special dialogue triggered; the alt was treated with the appropriate comments
• After the prologue quest, my alt went on to meet Divayth Fyr.
• Fyr has a multiple of different comments, depending on whether you've completed the Main Storyline, Thieves' guild, Vvardenfell, etc. Across my characters, I fulfill the requirements for most of these (except Orsinium, Halls of Fab, and Dark Brotherhood).
• Fyr responded to my alt with the dialogue that triggers for the prologue quest. Since my toon did indeed do the prologue quest, this is to be expected.
• Curious, I created an additional new character, skipped tutorial, and sent them on a beeline to Fyr. Fyr used the dialogue that triggers when you DON'T have any other questlines complete ("The future holds its secrets close, but I have scryed glimpses. Your spirit strides alongside those of anointed kings and heroes. Trust me - you walk the path to power. Don't believe me? Good. A healthy dose of skepticism will serve you well."). So this does seem to be working properly
• I went back to my previous new alt (the one who completed the prologue quest) and continued on.
• Fyr's comments were triggering as they should through the Pneumatic Forge, including the one dialogue that triggers when you complete the prologue quest. Everything working normally.
• I reach the Brass Fortress
• There are three people here whose dialogue is dependent on whether you've met them before: Neramo, Raynor, and Kireth. I've completed almost all of these three's quests on my main.
• None of them recognized my alt. Neramo, Raynor, and Kireth all treated my alt as a stranger. So this seems to be working fine as well.
• I'm still working through the main questline and paying attention to all the lines as I go along, but there's not going to be a lot of alternative dialogue that's dependent on other questlines from here on until I at least get to the crows (who do have alternative dialogue if you've completed Crow's Wood).

Conclusion on the Clockwork testing thus far: nothing is broken so far and everything seems to be working as normal.

~~

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

They actually didn't do anything. Melina was already behaving like that - not having any lines for a character who completed the 5 interactions - before AWA. The only difference is that now all of your "extra" characters are really just alter-egos of the one who did it first.

I remember running across her plenty of times after my main had completed her "quest", back when they released the structural plans and motifs for Markarth*. It was very odd to still find her, be able to hit the interaction button, but have no lines.

Back then, I found it very odd and thought they were becoming careless. She might be the only NPC in game who has nothing else to say to you after you completed all the steps. Not even a thank you (I was actually hoping for some kind of info on how her relationship with Fennorian had evolved).

I wonder if when they coded Markarth they forgot to add a few lines of code that would prevent characters who had done all the steps from seeing her again.



*Just to be clear, this was all done with my main. I did NOT got my other characters to Markarth.

My apologies. When I completed her, she always disappeared for me. So I had assumed that her sticking around (but uninteractable) was a "new" thing. Then again, it's hard to prove something doesn't appear than it is to prove that something does appear; it's quite possible that she's always stuck around in this state and I just never had the luck to find her again after all 5 times.

Either way, I am still very sad she is not fixed. I understand that it is not very high on the list of important things to fix, but I would feel less awful if they at least mentioned whether it's something they are going to try and fix at a later time....

Kesstryl wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

They actually didn't do anything. Melina was already behaving like that - not having any lines for a character who completed the 5 interactions - before AWA. The only difference is that now all of your "extra" characters are really just alter-egos of the one who did it first.

I remember running across her plenty of times after my main had completed her "quest", back when they released the structural plans and motifs for Markarth*. It was very odd to still find her, be able to hit the interaction button, but have no lines.

Back then, I found it very odd and thought they were becoming careless. She might be the only NPC in game who has nothing else to say to you after you completed all the steps. Not even a thank you (I was actually hoping for some kind of info on how her relationship with Fennorian had evolved).

I wonder if when they coded Markarth they forgot to add a few lines of code that would prevent characters who had done all the steps from seeing her again.



*Just to be clear, this was all done with my main. I did NOT got my other characters to Markarth.

I didn't even know they had achievement only quests and NPCs that were not tracked in the quest database until the bugs came out on PTS with AwA. It just makes me sad ZOS didn't think these particular quests were important enough to keep in character achievements, or move to a simple yes/no check in the quest database. I mean, museum quests were important enough to move character side, why not these achievement only NPCs also?

As for Melina ending up with Fennorian, she's too flightly. Have you read all her messages when she sends you enchanting materials and how she was into this one guy, and then kissed another one, and had this sort of love triangle going on? Fennorian is too nice for that sort of thing and I kinda felt bad ZOS put that in there for him.

For me it's losing Count Verandis' epilogue that hurts the most. It's the perfect wrap up to the Dark Heart of Skyrim story arc, and not having that ever again just sucks.

I agree, Melina would not be a good fit for Fenn. She's a hopeless romantic, and I wouldn't doubt she'd eventually move on to someone new the next time we meet her. (And technically only one of the two dudes from her letters seemed to reciprocate her feelings. The other is a little bit hazier). Additionally, I actually think there's some evidence to suggest that Fenn doesn't feel the same way about her.

Technically, Melina does appear in the Greymoor storyline, but you can only see her if you abandon the main questline (from "Vampire Scholar" onwards; she won't appear prior to this quest). She is one of the NPCs tasked with re-directing you back to the main questline if you've dropped the quest from your quest log. One of the comments she makes off-handedly suggests that Fennorian is purposefully giving her the task of giving you these messages in order to keep her out of his way. And her next comment about how "splendidly we get along" seems more like she's trying to convince herself than any statement of truth.


~~~

To return to the topic of storylines and AWA, I wanted to apologize that the Clockwork city testing has not gone as fast as I'd have liked. I got very very ill this week, and I'm still struggling to catch up on my work. But I wanted to share what results I have so far, at the very least.

• I made sure that my main's achievements on Clockwork, Vvardenfell, Main Storyline, and Thieves' guild were all registered
• Made a new toon, skipped tutorial, went through Clockwork prologue quest
• This quest happens to have special dialogue, dependent on whether you did Vvardenfell or Clockwork before doing the quest. None of this special dialogue triggered; the alt was treated with the appropriate comments
• After the prologue quest, my alt went on to meet Divayth Fyr.
• Fyr has a multiple of different comments, depending on whether you've completed the Main Storyline, Thieves' guild, Vvardenfell, etc. Across my characters, I fulfill the requirements for most of these (except Orsinium, Halls of Fab, and Dark Brotherhood).
• Fyr responded to my alt with the dialogue that triggers for the prologue quest. Since my toon did indeed do the prologue quest, this is to be expected.
• Curious, I created an additional new character, skipped tutorial, and sent them on a beeline to Fyr. Fyr used the dialogue that triggers when you DON'T have any other questlines complete ("The future holds its secrets close, but I have scryed glimpses. Your spirit strides alongside those of anointed kings and heroes. Trust me - you walk the path to power. Don't believe me? Good. A healthy dose of skepticism will serve you well."). So this does seem to be working properly
• I went back to my previous new alt (the one who completed the prologue quest) and continued on.
• Fyr's comments were triggering as they should through the Pneumatic Forge, including the one dialogue that triggers when you complete the prologue quest. Everything working normally.
• I reach the Brass Fortress
• There are three people here whose dialogue is dependent on whether you've met them before: Neramo, Raynor, and Kireth. I've completed almost all of these three's quests on my main.
• None of them recognized my alt. Neramo, Raynor, and Kireth all treated my alt as a stranger. So this seems to be working fine as well.
• I'm still working through the main questline and paying attention to all the lines as I go along, but there's not going to be a lot of alternative dialogue that's dependent on other questlines from here on until I at least get to the crows (who do have alternative dialogue if you've completed Crow's Wood).

Conclusion on the Clockwork testing thus far: nothing is broken so far and everything seems to be working as normal.

~~

Excellent, and thank you for such thorough testing! Clockwork seemingly bug free is good news!

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't see Melina as a good fit for Fenn based on her flightiness when it comes to men.

Kesstryl wrote: »

As for Melina ending up with Fennorian, she's too flightly. Have you read all her messages when she sends you enchanting materials and how she was into this one guy, and then kissed another one, and had this sort of love triangle going on? Fennorian is too nice for that sort of thing and I kinda felt bad ZOS put that in there for him.

Also he's definitely not slightly adorably crushing on the Vestige by the end of the Markarth storyline, I mean haha why would you even think that it's totally not what he said at all.


I'll add some of the new findings to my summary thread sometime when it hasn't been a busy day.

Ilsabet wrote: »

Also he's definitely not slightly adorably crushing on the Vestige by the end of the Markarth storyline, I mean haha why would you even think that it's totally not what he said at all.

Yeah, I really hope that being inducted into House Ravenwatch doesn't make us, like...siblings. My Breton templar does not exactly feel sisterly toward Fenn.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

If it's tied to an achievement, yes... You'll never see the vanilla dialogue ever again.

😢 Stuga

"Stuga, in your own homeland!"

This one does not know, but he hopes to do something worthwhile.

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Also he's definitely not slightly adorably crushing on the Vestige by the end of the Markarth storyline, I mean haha why would you even think that it's totally not what he said at all.

Yeah, I really hope that being inducted into House Ravenwatch doesn't make us, like...siblings. My Breton templar does not exactly feel sisterly toward Fenn.

I'm sure there are quite a few players that feel the same way. He's certainly likable. There were a couple romantic fanatic threads about him in the RP forum, and I'm sure plenty more appreciation fanfic and art can be Googled. He's frequently asked for as both a house guest and a companion.

It's fun talking about something other than the depressing side of AwA, thanks for cheering me up today.

@Wolf_Eye , no need to apologize. You're right, there is no way to prove a negative. I mean, an NPC that has RNG based behavior not appearing could be justified by RNG. All the more reason for ZOS to actually tell us what is and isn't expected.

My main has, so far, done pretty much every single quest this game has to offer (aside from a few in Cyro and the main quest in IC), and I usually walk everywhere. Those NPCs who have "find them" achievements attached to them tend to not be seen again once the achievement is complete. Melina is the only exception I can think of. Hence why I thought she'd have more lines.



Walks toward the door, opens it, steps through the treshold and turn back to say: I thought Fenn was gay and had a thing for Verandis. Closes the door quickly while ducking to avoid flying projectiles.

KMarble wrote: »

Walks toward the door, opens it, steps through the treshold and turn back to say:[/i] I thought Fenn was gay and had a thing for Verandis. Closes the door quickly while ducking to avoid flying projectiles.

LOL, OMG you made my day! Honestly though, he calls Verandis his father, so I don't think the writers were going for that. Speaking of gay, one of my gay guild members also had a thing for Fenn. He seems to appeal to a wide range of people.

Kesstryl wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Walks toward the door, opens it, steps through the treshold and turn back to say:[/i] I thought Fenn was gay and had a thing for Verandis. Closes the door quickly while ducking to avoid flying projectiles.

LOL, OMG you made my day! Honestly though, he calls Verandis his father, so I don't think the writers were going for that. Speaking of gay, one of my gay guild members also had a thing for Fenn. He seems to appeal to a wide range of people.

Fenn's meet the character suggests Verandis is even his ancestor. And really, he even looks the part too. Just have to convince Fenn to grow a stubble and he'd pass as a younger Verandis

I love them both so much.

Kesstryl wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I begged them to fix Melina Cassel and they just made her worse.

I am depressed.

As for Melina ending up with Fennorian, she's too flightly. Have you read all her messages when she sends you enchanting materials and how she was into this one guy, and then kissed another one, and had this sort of love triangle going on? Fennorian is too nice for that sort of thing and I kinda felt bad ZOS put that in there for him.

Also Fennorian is in the official Smoulder Scrolls adventure, so technically he has a crush on the Vestige.

Kesstryl wrote: »

Adventurer wrote: »

Also Fennorian is in the official Smoulder Scrolls adventure, so technically he has a crush on the Vestige.

You know I never played that before. Holy Mara you're right! His lines are hotter than Darien's! I would have expected Darien to be the hip pulling making up for lost time kind of guy! O.O I think Fennorian wins this!

Edited to add that Fenn having a crush on the Vestige just makes him more endearing as a character. I hope ZOS doesn't get rid of that in the future. It's adorable!

He's so cute there, right? I preferred the friends endings for the other characters but his was so nice! What does he say that makes you think he was crushing on the Vestige in GreymoorMarkanth btw? I haven't finished it yet so I'm curiuos.